Obeying the speed limit in 120 classes

[madziarracing]

I would like to start a discussion about how the different circuits enforce the speed limit in snoX. I know this is a sore spot for just about every 120 dad ou there. Every year it creates drama and takes away from the fun of the day. Speed limits and racing dont seem to go together well but there has got to be an efficeint way to keep everyone happy.
In our circuit a Bushnell radar gun is used. Speed is monitored generally from the same spot all day. Now after doing a little homework on how radar guns work, I have not seen one used correctly yet. www.bushnell.com/manuals/speed-gun/101907%20Speedster.pdf If you refer to Bushnells owners manual you will clearly see that the only way to effectively radar speed is from a head on reading. That would mean that the only spot on a track would be at the end of a turn. Not from the side of the track. The angle can change the read speed so much it is not even funny. Especially being that we are only talking about 12, 15 and 18 mph. The chart in the above manual shows the effect. So if the track marshall is on the side of the track and radars a racer at an angle of 30 degrees and the racers speed is 18 (when it should be 15) the gun is going to read 15.6.
So now that we know the gun has its own flaws let alone low batteries and an operating range low of 32 degrees, we know that some kids will let off when they see the gun. A whole new problem. So I have read to remedy that some fake guns are used around the track to keep the kids guessing.
So does anyones race circuit use a different system? I think that this is the hardest part in 120 racing to deal with. Nothing like seeing your kid ride his ass off and then get DQ'd.

[madziarracing]

I guess I should have read on WTC forum b4 posting this...Looks like more speed limit drama across the board.

[Bob Vehring]

Actuly Pete, you picked the right time for it, every track I have heard about faces the problems.
I agree that in a perfict world racing shouldn't have a speed limit, but, I guess you have to concider the alturnatives. In big level racing you exspect to be tore down after each race, I think if that were done each week at a club race, most people would be done after two or three weeks of having to asemble their engines and get them back in the sled each weekend.
With karts you can get the engine off in 5 min or less then stand their in your shorts watching all the pretty girls go by. With sleds it take 1/2 hr-45 min for most people just to get the engine out. When your called into tech, you are in impound until the class clears.
I have no problem doing serious tear downs if thats whats needed, I just want people to understand if thats what they want, they should understand what they will get. The racers is responcable to know how, and have all the tools to remove and dis-assemble their engine and expect to be there an hour or two. at Badger, if you refuse tech or leave for any reason, you will not be coming back, and putting it all back together is up to you.
Every idea has its problems, took me, oh, half a sec. to see around the using AMB lap times, method.. Radar guns can have issues, there are very good guns made that avoid most of those issues, but the cost is far above what a club can afford. People say we need multiple guns on the track, but I have yet to see them offer to buy them.
I know WTC went to the extent of having someone with no ties to 120 classes watch the times, but people still complain, now there talking about a big remote screen so people can all see the results, again a big exspence to the club that has a hard time finanaually to start with. If you mount a gun on a tri pod, and theres 8 sleds coming at you, everyone is going to blaime the guy next to them. I haven't seen the idea of using a spec gear come up yet this year, but that also has problems. You might find a gear ratio that on a best condition day keeps you right under the speed limit, but what about the warm day with a beat up track? What if yoour kid weights 40# more then some others?
I really can't think of a method that doesn't bring problems with it. IMO the best shot we have is the gun along with tech.
The thing I see that bothers me most is the guys that have no problem being DQ'ed,, they actuly stand their and tell us, they don't care about the points, they just came to come in first.
Now theres just something wrong with that additude.

[madziarracing]

What about running the sleds on the flats against a radar every morning. Dial in and dont touch it? That way on the track all would be the same. I dont think serious tech is what we need here. Just trying to dial a sled in at the speed limit is hard enough some times...But it is the attitude when you know you are running fast but no one has said anything so why change it. I had to laugh this past weekend. We were running the same set up all weekend. Everything was great on Saturday running 4,2,1,4. Then sunday we ran 2 heats because of more kids. My son was riding with one kid that has the experience to be competitive and the rest were kids that it was their first year. My son pulled the hole shot and was gone!!! He was riding his best all weekend way out front. I looked at him pulling away and just shook my head. I knew he was gonna be DQd. Of course the he got nailed go 1 mph too fast. I dropped 1 tooth on the rear gear and got my butt kicked the rest of the day. It sucks to do the right thing but I knew if I dropped the tooth he would have no chance in the final which he didnt. took 5th. So what to do....Running them all first thing and maybe writing down what gears everyone is running may be the only thing to do. Atleast they would all be the same on the flats. I have heard so people complain about the leaders being way out front. They have to be speeding right because I know my kid isnt letting off on the jumps and in the corners. Well I am here to tell you. Yes they do. and some kids dont. And THAT can make all the difference in the world. Buying a digatron so I could record just what was happening was the best thing I did. I have it calibrated so I can see his speed. I used the magnetic pick up on the four bolts that hold the gear. Works great. Best part is when he runs a crappy race I can download the run and see for myself that the sled is just fine. Mod the kid not the sled. Well I am open to any good ideas. I want my son to be competitive just as much as the next guy but it isnt worth getting DQd.

[Bob Vehring]

Pete that has been dicussed here, maybe to some degree it might help, deffinately might help if we were drag racing, but I see a couple problems,
First nothing to keep people from working on their sleds all day so I guess you would need to do it before each race to set speed.
Second these things have 3 hp, thats if there set up well and the carb is tuned for the conditions at race time. We usually have some pretty good hills here, add a soft track and what you set it for a a 1/8 mile of packed snow isn't really going to help the really big kid going up a hill.

I think part of the problem is, because this starts at such an early age, it is some peoples first venture in to racing. They say this is suppose to be a box stock, showroom class. It is. Racing is, taking your engine, clutch, chassis and geting every thing you can out of it under the rules. That alone is worth alot. Other people are not new to racing and know what to do. Box stock doesn't mean you don't have to set it up and work on it.

A good recording gauge is important if you want to know what is happening out there, most people don't have them. A personal rader gun is important to setting your kid up, again most people don't have one. I understand the costs of getting started, but this is racing. Some people will have those things and use them.
I don't have a bulit proof answer, I don't think anyone does, people don't under stend that. Your from Mi., I saw the same issues at Eagle River last week both Snow X and ovals, I hear about it from every state we have customers in. People tend to get mad at the track they race, I haven't heard of anything, anywhere that works better then the Gun and tech. If someone had an answer, I'm sure every track would be doing it.
On the lighter side, over the years I have heard some classic's from places.
One guy kept telling me how good his driver was. He offered to have his kid drive each sled and tell us which ones were to fast to race out there.. My all time favorite, Someone wanted to but all the sled numbers in a hat and for each race the kids would pull numbers and race that sled. I'd besure to go home and spend all my time and money so someone else was fast, I'm sure everyone else would too